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S01-E06: Boosting Gut Health with Fermented Foods

March 10, 2024 • Dr Biswajit Podder • Season 1 • Episode 6

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In this episode, I talk with Cecilia Wu, MSc. a fermentation expert with Chinese roots, about how fermentation can change modern nutrition and food. Cecilia quit her job as a banker to lead Cecii, a fermented food and drink startup. She talks about her unique journey and how she combined traditional fermentation methods with modern scientific knowledge to make food that is not only tasty and healthy but also good for the environment.

Cecilia explained that fermentation is more than just a cooking process; it is also an important link between old customs and new food ideas. It provides long-lasting and tasty answers to the health problems caused by the widespread use of ultra-processed foods today. And through her story, Cecilia shows how important fermentation is for making tasty, healthy foods that are good for us and good for our planet. She takes the mystery out of fermented foods by explaining the science behind how they can improve our gut health, metabolism, and general health, which has a big impact on our physical and mental health.

A lot of harmful effects of ultra-processed foods are talked about in this show, along with the amazing benefits of eating fermented foods. These benefits include better absorption of nutrients and the important part that gut microbiota plays in keeping you healthy. Cecilia clearly knows what she's talking about when she breaks down complicated biological and biochemical processes into simple ideas that are easy to understand. For example, she explains the basics of fermentation and how it affects our mental and stomach health.

People are talking not only about the health benefits of fermentation but also about what it means for food as a way to promote environmental and health responsibility. People should start fermenting again because Cecilia's story is a strong argument for it as a lifestyle choice that could lead to a better future for everyone.

With Cecilia's passion and knowledge, listeners are invited to learn more about the many health benefits of fermented foods. This show is a great resource for anyone interested in nutrition science, fermentation art, or living a healthy, sustainable life. The goal of this in-depth discussion is to raise knowledge and understanding of the role that fermented foods play in a healthy diet. This will hopefully lead to a change in eating habits that are more mindful and focused on health for better health and environmental sustainability.

Follow Cecilia Wu on Instagram @cecilicious.wu

If you have any questions, suggestions, or feedback, please contact at scipodchat@gmail.com

Disclaimer: This podcast is for informational purposes only, and SciPodChat is not intended to replace professional advice. Please note that the views, information, or opinions expressed during SciPodChat are solely those of the individuals involved, not any professional organization in which they are involved.

We Talk Science

Speaker 1:

Hello Science Lovers. This is Cyberturet, a podcast where we explain science puzzles in a way everybody understands. This podcast is brought to you by StemDuradu. The goal of StemDuradu is to make learning fun and interesting for kids. The games and exercise on StemDuradu are fun and help kids learn math and science at the same time. I am your host, dr Pishit Pudder, a scientist with more than 12 years of research experience in cancer disease. Today we are joined by Cecilia Hu, a real fermentation expert and the creative mind behind an innovative food and drink startup called Ceci. Not only does she have a deep Chinese heritage in fermentation, but she is also a low-codden bloke graduate in nutrition and gastronomy and work at Salio London, the fast zero-west restaurant with a big focus on fermentation. Cecilia plans traditional fermentation with modern science to create food that's tasty, healthy and good for people and, of course, for the planet. She is here to share her passion and show us how fermentation can be a game changer in our kitchen, for our bodies, minds and beyond that. Hi Cecilia, how are you?

Speaker 2:

I'm great. Thanks, pishit, for the kind intro. And colony expert might be stretching quite a lot, and I like to think of myself as a fermentation enthusiast. There is so much more about these microorganisms and the biochemical process that we really need to find out. So I'm really excited to be here today and share my love of fermentation food and additional signs with you and your listeners. So thanks so much for inviting me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm really excited to learn more about fermentation products or fermented products and about your journey. So tell us a bit about you and Ceci. Your journey is very interesting, as you pivoted to the food and drink industry after 10 years in banking, which is very interesting for me, so I'm really eager to know from you. So tell us about it.

Speaker 2:

Thanks. Well, that's a massive U-turn, absolutely from banking to food and drink, but for me, I've always loved cooking and gastronomy because I grew up in a southern China village with my grandparents who were farmers, so my families always lived sustainably, grew our own food and preserved abundant food naturally, and fermentation was one of the methods. So basic food has always been special to me because it means a lot more than just what we eat. But I moved to the UK for my studies in my early 20s and then worked in banking for 10 years.

Speaker 1:

Wow.

Speaker 2:

So during the pandemic I had huge physical and mental health challenges.

Speaker 1:

I see.

Speaker 2:

Probably a lot of people had that as well. So that kind of experience made me to reassess my life purpose and I realized that I really care about making good food that's good for the human and the planet. So I took a career break to learn about astronomy, nutrition, sustainability, film, microbiology and the plant science through various programs and also self studies. So through this journey I basically discovered a big problem with the modern diet.

Speaker 2:

So our food and drink are often ultra processed. They are high in fat, sugar, salt and also artificial chemicals. They have very little nutrient that are good for us. So because of what I've learned, I started to read food labels and change my diet and because of this practice I felt so much more energized and happier and have a far fewer health issues.

Speaker 2:

And then in terms of, I guess, the other thing where I realized is that the way we grow, produce and transport food is not good for the planet, and that's why I have set a mission for myself, which is to create food and drink that are healthy, tasty, sustainable, to improve the vitality of the people and the planet.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, we need it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I really believe this is what all future food and drinks should be like. So Ceci is really about my self discovery journey and my mission to make a positive change in human and planet health. So I guess you asked me about why do I choose fermentation?

Speaker 1:

right, yeah, but okay, I'll come to that point a bit later. So can you tell me what is ultra processed food? So what kind of foods do you define as an ultra processed food?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so in the food industry, obviously, processing can include you boil it, you heat it, you wash it, you chop it you dehydrate it, you bake it. So all of these are called food processing techniques.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

And the way how we define ultra processed. Basically, food has been going through lots of different processing mechanism and then through that way these food are able to have a longer shelf life, but they have a lot less, or actually minimum, nutritional values.

Speaker 1:

So you mean that whenever the process of the food, so the food, learns all the nutrients, but especially micronutrients probably?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so in addition, in order to keep these food shelf life stable and also have a longer shelf life, manufacturers will also add additives into you know, or flavor enhancers yeah, these are like E numbers and to make the food tastier or potentially safer or longer, to have longer shelf life to be consumed, and then, yeah, so that's basically how I guess you can understand ultra processed food from that like easy perspective.

Speaker 1:

Right, Actually, I want to share one experience with you. So basically I'm very cautious about what I'm eating, right? So then I always when I pay a packet per right. So I just go into level and I've seen they're using tons of chemicals. Even I don't know their name actually in my like real life, but they're using like 10, 20, 30 different kind of chemicals. But I think this is not really good like for our body, right?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And that's why you know there are so much. If you really look into the current, I guess, food trend and the healthy food trend like ultra processed food is really kind of taken a lot of, you know, people's attention. We don't need these additives of flavored enhancers or fake chemicals, you know, to make it taste like, you know, chicken or whatever things. So when you go and buy food I always go trying to go for like a clean label. So if I realize there's anything that I don't understand it, yes, you don't buy it.

Speaker 2:

I don't buy it.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so always natural food, right? So now I want to understand, like, if you talk about the definition, what is fermentation and what are the signs behind that?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely so. Fermentation is a metabolic process where microorganisms break down a larger substance into a simpler substance in the absence of oxygen. So these microorganisms can include bacteria, ease of fungi. Obviously they need energy and fields to thrive, so during the fermentation process they break down sugar and starches to different acids which then use to make ATP with oxygen.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so for our energy in your body? Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so, and but when there's no oxygen, they produce acid and other products they also produce ATP too. So different microorganisms have a different favorable fuel sources, such as various sugar, dietary fiber and protein, like they grow and die in different environments impacted by temperature, ph and the amount of available oxygen and moisture. Right, so I can talk about different, maybe, fermentation processes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yes, definitely.

Speaker 2:

Okay, well, I can talk about, maybe, lactic acid fermentation, because I think probably a lot of people are more familiar with it due to Sauerkraut kimchi.

Speaker 1:

Exactly yeah.

Speaker 2:

That's the part of it. So basically, in the lactic acid fermentation and lactic acid bacteria play a very important role. So the way how you start the fermentation process is you start by adding a percentage of salt to like raw vegetables for example, you know Sauerkraut, that's like a cabbage and in an anaerobic environment and because our environment and vegetables you know I cover with why bacteria and yeast, the fermentation process starts naturally Right. So the combination of salt and the lack of oxygen creates a hostile environment for harmful bacteria to survive but encourage beneficial bacteria lactic bacillus to grow.

Speaker 1:

Good bacteria yeah because they can.

Speaker 2:

They actually can thrive in a high salt environment. But you know, within that environment I call a lot to a lactic bacillus lab. I hope that's okay.

Speaker 1:

Okay, yes, definitely LAP. Basically, you know that, like I want to share, like I'm, I started microbiology and immunology. So in my undergrad and also I did my master's on microbiology and immunology. Oh, pretty good. So I never look. Call is black to vesius lab. But I love it. I love the fact that. I learned something new in here.

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah, so it's a basic lab. Uh, convert sugars into lactic acid and lowering the pH and then creating an acid environment to stop the harmful bacteria from growing further.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

And then. So I've been obviously doing a lot of product development at home and I've been testing, like, for example, I found it to be the room temperature for five days.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And then I see a 15% to 25% reduction in the pH and sugar. Yeah so that kind of like gives you a bit of you know, I guess, uh. So hopefully that gives you a kind of a good, kind of basic explanation in terms for how lactic acid fermentation work.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Um, but I think also there's also another type of a fact, there are also a lot of other type of fermentation, For example, like the in East and alcohol fermentation. You add East into your fruits and to metabolize sugar to produce ethanol and carbon dioxide. So do you like beer or wine? Oh yeah, yeah, we all know right, beer, wine, cider, cider. And now there's also very famous, uh, famous, uh fermented, uh alcoholic beverage called Meese, as well as fermented with honey.

Speaker 1:

Oh, really, um, yeah, I did try using this sort of like processes. Okay.

Speaker 2:

Um, but actually in the fermentation, well, um, there's a trend which is like really popular at the moment, which is, um, like coji fermentation. You probably have a heard of it, so, um, so in the coji ferment. Coji fermentation is a part of like fungi fermentation. You're like add specific mold spore to a food subtract and then, under the right moisture and temperature, these modes grow and produce enzyme, you know. Then they break down the carbs into sugar and protein, to amino acids, yeah, so you might have heard of miso, like soy sauce, you know, blue cheese and temp air. They're all made through these, uh, fermentation process. Um, yeah, Okay, cool.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So if you are a kombucha, you know lover um, you probably also already know that kombucha, which start with, you know we call it like scoby it's called as symbiotic culture of bacteria and yeast. So it's made up of lactic acid bacteria, acid acid bacteria and yeast and then, if you've got like a two processes, the yeast break down sugar, first the in the sweetened tea to uh and the carbon dioxide, and then the bacteria, particularly the acetic acid bacteria, convert the ethanol into acidity acid. So it's, I guess it's just. I remember when I started with fermentation, uh, reading the fermentation signs, it's, it's really while they're quite complex.

Speaker 1:

Okay, yeah, but I mean there's a lot of things going on in fermentation. Well, so, um, as I understand, whenever you were talking about uh fermentation, you mentioned uh about bacteria and also human body, right, yeah, um, so what are the relationship between human and bacteria, especially, I think, in here, good bacteria, mm-hmm. How do these microorganisms work, uh, like magic in our body? Can you go in that direction a bit for my listeners, please?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely Well. So if you think of the human gastrointestinal tract, yes like a bustling city you know, a home to more than 100 trillion microorganisms. They're like very small livings such as bacteria, yeast, fungi, viruses. They're all living inside us, so they're very diverse and active, forming our gut mycobiotta, and it's estimated that over 1000 different bacteria assist in our gut, but 30 to 40 species.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely make up over 95% of the population. I was shocked when I learned about these facts and also it's interesting. I didn't know this before. But, like when we were born, we actually inherit our initial set of gut microbiome from mother from different birth from our developmental stage in a mother fetus. Yeah, not just, not only through what the mother eats during their pregnancy diet, but also when we are.

Speaker 1:

We grow yeah coming out from.

Speaker 2:

Okay we're born, yeah, through natural birth or through the C session that we also carry the. You know microorganisms in the environment. We were born as well, right and but it's interesting because as we grow up, our gut microbiome changes based on our diet, lifestyle, medication, environment and many other factors. For example, you might have heard that you know antibiotics is really bad for our gut microbiomes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And that's why a lot of doctors now start to prescribe probiotics to patients who have several antibiotics afterwards.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so how gut, microbiomes regulate our overall health, so can you tell me that about it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely so, these gut microbiomes. They regulate our health by defending against pathogens and supporting the immune systems, so they produce various molecules that influence the behavior of our immune cells, both in the gut and in the body, for example, shot-chain fatty acids. They are mainly produced by the gut microbiome fermentation of dietary fibers and could also be produced by the bacteria of the skin, so acetate propionate and butchrate are three major shot-chain fatty acids that being studied quite extensively. So a study demonstrate shows that butchrate improves insulin sensitivity and increase energy expenditure in mice.

Speaker 2:

And now the research shows that propionate could reduce food intake in humans because they kind of like suppress our appetite and reduce weight gain and also intra-abdominal fat accumulations. Right, so, although the shot-chain fatty acid has shown many health benefits, such as anti-inflammatory, anti-obesity, anti-diabetes, but a lot of results still come from pre-clinical models, so more clinical trial needs to be carried out to verify these potential effects on human beings. So we talked about how it regulates our health.

Speaker 1:

So what happened? Whenever it's the imbalance of the gut microbiome?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so an imbalanced gut microbiome can lead to various intestinal and other diseases, such as irritable bowel syndrome, irritable bowel disease, pancreatic disorder, and also lack of wild, diverse and good volumes of gut microbiome. We also are more likely to develop metabolic disorder such as obesity, impairment of reproductive health and insulin sensitivity.

Speaker 1:

So you mean here sorry, I'll interrupt you here so you mean that if we have imbalance of gut microbiomes, so there is a chance that we might gain weight.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's. A lot of research shows that.

Speaker 1:

Is there any relationship between gut and brain?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. You probably have heard a lot about gut-bring acid, so it's really interesting because your gut and brain sends a message to each other in a two-way communication through various pathways such as nervous system, hormone and immune systems and, for example, serotonin is a very important neurotransmitter for gut and mental health, and low level of serotonin can make you feel depressed and anxious, difficult to sleep and suffer digestive problems. And I don't know whether you've heard that. So 95% of the body serotonin is produced in in testine. That's a massive amount.

Speaker 1:

Wow, so I don't know the fact. Wow, interesting, wow. And basically so we have to keep happy our guts for making serotonin. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so you need to. Basically, if your gut is happy, and then you're most likely to be living a happy life.

Speaker 1:

Makes sense, makes sense Happy life.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but yeah. So when I learn about this factor like 95% of body serotonin is produced in testine I was like so surprised. So I kind of dig into in terms of understanding how the process works. So, basically, it begins with triptophan, which is the essential amino asset that we can get from our gut.

Speaker 2:

So our gut microbiome could either release chemicals, that's the no gut cells to convert a triptophan into serotonin or produce triptophan themselves, and that's why we need to eat like probiotic and hyper food to keep our gut happy. Yeah, but then yeah, and also because we talked about the gubrinex, which is like a, you know, two way communication channel, isn't it? So when you're stressed, for example, your brain also sends a note to your gut, and that's why you probably feel we've failed.

Speaker 2:

Actually, you know, we feel sick we feel stomach ache when we are very stressful, and that's basically the two-way communication channels impact. So that's why gut microbiome affects not just our digestive health but also our mental health and overall health overall well-being, so feel your gut, yeah.

Speaker 1:

so from now, I learned that I have to make sure that my guts are happy.

Speaker 2:

I will have more serotonin and I'll be more happy right yeah, and also have a lot of high-fiber food, oh yeah so okay, I wanted to ask this question earlier actually.

Speaker 1:

So what kind of food contains high-fiber? Do you have any idea?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so high-fiber, obviously. You know, we have like whole grains and then leafy grains and some certain fruits and vegetables. Oh, right. I mean, and you know, and I can definitely share a list of high-fiber food with you.

Speaker 1:

That would be good. That would be good. Yeah, I really feel that I need, like, more high-fiber containing foods. But like what? Should I buy Like I really sometimes feel confused. What kind of food could be best for my guts?

Speaker 2:

along with high-fibers, that would be good To be honest, because a lot of research saying that if you're trying to have 30 different plants a week 30, yeah you tend to have a really good, diverse, healthy diet and then that can also make your gut happy.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so you're telling 30 different types of nuts the same kind of things 30 times.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, 30 different types of plants but, these can be, you know, like vegetables, fruit, grains, legumes, you know all sorts yeah okay, that's another nice fact I learned, so can you?

Speaker 1:

So? Can farm-related food improve our gut? As you mentioned about that, we need to make our gut happy, so farm-related food can help in here. Can you give some examples like where we can understand that farm-related food helps to improve our gut?

Speaker 2:

microbiota yeah, absolutely so. There are lots of scientific research and showing the health benefit of farm-related food, most around improving our gut microbiota, increasing nutrient absorption and also improving the metabolism. So, for example, like fermentation increased food's nutrient bioavailability significantly when you compare with like raw food. So I don't know whether you've heard, do you understand, bioavailability?

Speaker 1:

Yes, I understand. Yeah, of course you understand. It's easily degradable, right? Yes, absolutely, with microorganisms who?

Speaker 2:

might not be familiar with it, so on your listeners. So bioavailability basically means the degree to which a nutrient can be absorbed, retain and used by the body. So natural compounds in plant food can always act as an anti-nutrient to reduce their absorption in our body. Like for example, like you know, phytase in whole grinium beans and tannin in tea could hinder plant iron absorption. That's why when we're cooking, you know, like grains and beans we always soaked it, because soaking can actually help to remove these sort of anti-nutrients.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I see.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and also oxalate in green vegetables could also hinder calcium absorption. And then fermentation has been shown to reduce anti-nutrient compound and increasing nutrient bioavailability, like iron. So there's a study in 2016 found that iron absorption increased by 100% in 17 participants who consume fermented vegetables compared to those who ate the fresh one. So if you want bioavailable iron, have some lactate asset fermented food, such as sauerkraut.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I drink a lot of caffeine actually.

Speaker 2:

Caffe is great yeah okay. Caffe is great, great. So I obviously talked about the bioavailability of the nutrient and through fermentation, microorganisms can also synthesize vitamins and minerals and produce beneficial compounds, and, for example, some microorganisms such as streptococcus is a spacia starter culture you will see in making yogurt and is very well known for synthesized folate and vitamin B12.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

And this is basically very essential for brain health and then to production right and also, as I talked about earlier, which is, you know, because these bacteria produce that organic asset, such as lactate asset acid, to exit and they also exhibit, like antimicrobial properties which helped you to improve, you know, immunity.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

And that's why you know, when you read a lot of research and you see, like people would say, actually consumption of fermented food could modulate intestinal microflora and the host health. And then coming back to the metabolic disease, it's quite interesting because I read a paper who did a research. It shows that fermented carot juice contains 52% more polysaccharides and 27% fewer monosaccharides than the raw carot juice.

Speaker 1:

Wow, it's a very interesting fact yeah.

Speaker 2:

So therefore, consuming fermented carot juice could be more beneficial for potentially like diabetes patients.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

Because polysaccharides, as you know, if they are the complex sugar they can, they are digested and absorbed more slowly, leading to steadier blood sugar levels, unlike you know, simple sugar monosaccharides, which are quickly absorbed and can quickly cause blood sugar spikes. And also, you know, polysaccharides can also enhance feelings of foodness and reduce your appetite, because you feel fuller for longer. And then, due to their lower glycemic index and some, polysaccharides function as a dietary fiber. They are not digested by us, but they are the perfect food for these microorganisms, you know, in our gut. So yeah, so that's why there's a lot of research around how fermented food can add health benefits to us.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, to be honest with you, I learned even you know that my background is like scientific background, but I didn't know the facts. So what I've learned to the numbers and the facts is really good. I think I really don't know, chance, how I am eating actually. So you mentioned a lot of about farm and food and drinks, right. So all um. Yeah, if I go to any supermarket in the UK or any other country, so In the shelf, like you, will find tons of different kind of farm and food, foods and drinks, right. So my question is so are they safe for our health?

Speaker 1:

They're good for our health or is there any Riggs factors and we should even buried? Or Well, how we can choose the good quality Firm and food.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely Well. So Not all fermented food and drinks are good for our health. Basically, it really depends on the fermentation process. Yeah and and also the ingredient they're using the production process. They are taken as well. So, although fermented food are generally considered safe, some family product can be contaminated by harmful microorganism. If low quality ingredients on sanitized fermentation vessels or poor production practices are used.

Speaker 1:

I see okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, and and also so, and also fermentation of high protein foods such as dry cue meat fermented fish and Can produce some harmful chemical Compounds to health when if we consume in high concentration and for example, like heavily salted fish and Salamis yeah often contain preservative like nitrites, which can convert to nitro summons, a chemical compound which could lead to increased risk of various cancer.

Speaker 1:

Wow.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and then you may have heard that wh? O has classified processed meat. Yeah as a group one human cancer course in agent and also we talked about kimchi a lot.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I love kimchi. Yeah, I have a thing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So kimchi is great, right, it's rich for probiotic and vitamins, and then also it's. But you know, certain versions, certain traditional Versions that can are heavily salted, yeah, or fermented for longer periods, can also contain high levels nitrate and Nitrosamine as well.

Speaker 1:

Wow.

Speaker 2:

So, and also, you know, you know we should, we should not consume too much salt in our diet because otherwise we will have a high risk of high blood pressure and then gastro vascular disease and etc.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and also cardiovascular disease.

Speaker 2:

Huh, Cardiovascular yeah, yeah, absolutely Cardiovascular disease and gastro cancer as well, to be honest, like it's interesting, because in Asia country, gastric cancer is actually number one. Yes, yeah, yeah and then some people obviously suspect that could, potentially relating to the diet because, the Asian diet has really high salt. But and Basically, when I was doing some market research, I found some. You know, I remember you mentioned you love kombucha.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, kombucha and kimchi yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so like you know, like kombucha is really trendy at the moment, right, yeah, I mean, all of us are like.

Speaker 1:

You know, I'm making some kombucha just here oh okay.

Speaker 2:

But? But according to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, actually we should limit kombucha to less than 340 grams, 40 mils per day. Okay, daily consumption of 100 mils of kombucha does not pose a health risk but, excessive consumption has led to acidosis, which is a condition where the body fluids contain too much acid.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, because our body, you know, our body's pH is around 7.4.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, new trouble.

Speaker 2:

Having too much acid could cause imbalance. Yes, definitely and that could cause your fatigue, weakness and other problems. Yeah, so just yeah. Try to spread your love of kombucha over a few days.

Speaker 1:

Exactly so you're talking about it on. If I summarize, that, fermented food is good for our health if you take it on certain amounts.

Speaker 2:

Not accessible amount right, yeah, and try to avoid, you know high salt content, fermented high protein food as well.

Speaker 1:

Okay, cool. Yeah, that's interesting. Can you give me a perspective of eastern and western world, especially on fermented food? So In there they are happy towards the difference. Can you touch on that bit?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, I think. To be honest, I think the technology used in the eastern and western they're quite some, they've been quite similar, but as the end product result is very, is probably quite different. So in Asian countries such as China, japan, korea, indonesia, so we eat obviously soy sauce, sichuan Pau Thai, which is like a Sichuan sourcrout, yeah, and then miso, kimchi and tempeh for centuries, yeah. But in the west, depending on the region, a lot of people like use obviously in the Germany, that is sourcrout and a lot of Eastern European.

Speaker 2:

They drink, like fermented beverage, kukvas, which is fermented for a sourdough bread, and also yogurt and cheese and wine, you know yeah, yeah, I think it's just like when you really start to learn about fermentation, you actually realize you're consuming fermented food every like, every day yeah, it's true.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so you talked about in the very beginning, about your family that sustainability, right? So what is the aspect of fermentation in terms of such sustainability?

Speaker 2:

yeah, so fermentation is really. I really believe fermentation can contribute to a more sustainable future in a lot of different ways. I guess I'm talking about maybe from the food and hospitality industry. Yeah, a lot of pioneers, like a NOMA. I don't know where they've heard of NOMA, which is VOTA is one of the top okay restaurant in the world they use a lot of fermentation and silo, then they also use a lot of fermentation to turn waste into delicious product.

Speaker 2:

For example, when I was working, like in my internship in silo, they had a one tons of fermentation program wow all sorts of different interesting things going on, and they often use a primary cuts of animals and plants to make dishes, but then firm and sub primary cuts or waste parts with Koji to create dressing sources and other products. Yeah, and for example, they use pumping guts you know this pumpkin. When you, when you buy a pumpkin, you just, like you know, throw away the guts and stuff yeah, exactly yeah, so they use the pumping guts with like Koji fermentation to make a pumpkin gut.

Speaker 2:

Exo source wow and also they also apply, like Koji fermentation, to chicken bones and wins to make a chicken wing garum. I remember when I had my birthday dinner there and then they told me that chicken wing garum was fermented for 12 months and nearly hit my jaw drop wow, can you be so tasty? But yeah it was the taste yeah, it was delicious okay, that is fine.

Speaker 1:

Is it safe?

Speaker 2:

tasty that's fine, yeah, it's delicious, so yeah, and then, and also I guess you know at home as well, and that's that's more kind of interditional, my culture. We basically we eat things very seasonal, yeah, and then. But when seasonal you always find abundant fruit or veggies. Right, then we just famine these abundant food and veggies to pickles or, like you know, wine, and then you can also preserve them. As you know, reduced food waste at home, yeah. So, for example, if you buy too many cabbages or beets, you can't finish them and then just turn them into sauerkraut and beat kimchi, and also cauliflower leaves you know, they do really, really nice kimchi, yeah and yeah.

Speaker 2:

So, and also, I guess, from a bio tech and food tech world, I've also seen many founders using, like solid state fermentation and precession fermentation to produce protein alternative. Yeah, such, because animal farming, you know, is one of the biggest contributor to food systems carbon emissions and then growing alternative protein in labs or bioreactors doesn't require animals fields water lands, hence more sustainable than traditional protein production methods.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so lots of start-up. I remember when I went to Bilbao for the World Food Tech Summit and a lot of start-up quote that they can estimate to save 97% of carbon right, compare with traditional farming methods. So that's the way how fermentation can also, you know, show this support, the sustainability, the huge impact.

Speaker 1:

I would say that, like I mean, it's really good for world. Like you are only helping to your guts, you're helping also environmental things as well, you guys, you're saving a lot of food waste as well yeah, absolutely that's fantastic. So just before we wrap up, cecilia. So do you want to share any final thoughts for our audience? Do you have anything to share?

Speaker 2:

well, it's been really lovely speaking with you and thanks so much for inviting me again, and I hope today's been interesting and helpful for your audience and my guess.

Speaker 2:

I'm sure I guess if you and all your listener are interested in following my journey or understanding a bit more about fermentation, or maybe even getting some fermented vegetables recipes you can always reach out to me via LinkedIn, on Instagram and yeah, and then we are going to launch up my product and the website this summer, so we'd really like to have some guinea pigs to try and give us a few.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, to be honest, cecilia, I learned a lot of thing about fermentation. So I learned a lot of facts, numbers, which is very important for me, I found. So I'm sure my audience would like all the facts and the informations you gave today and I I would say it's very insightful episodes, especially who's interested about health and mental well-being, all those things. So today I really wish all the best for your company, sassy. Thank you, cecilia, for insightful conversation to our listener. Thank you for joining me on support chat. We talk science and less no science together. Until next time, stay curious, stay inspired and stay tuned for more exciting conversations right here on your favorite support chat. Take care bye.